communismwillwin: @jamezsofunny

randomposter33: @randomposter33

what was your name you published under in the wsws ? Your case does seem one of Democratic rights tbf and I have seen your blog before though I do not agree with most of your criticisms of the wsws

Oct 25, 2021, 4:47 PM

****

Oct 25, 2021, 4:48 PM

I’m not sure I’d be the greatest help to you getting closure on this case because I was a sort of provisional member who only supports the wsws online mostly

Oct 25, 2021, 4:48 PM

Are you a member of the party?

Oct 25, 2021, 4:48 PM

No, I’m based in **** and the section is relatively small at least before hte pandemic

Oct 25, 2021, 4:48 PM

I see, and what happened after you provisional membership?*your

Oct 25, 2021, 4:49 PM

**** interfered with my wanting to become actively involved

Oct 25, 2021, 4:49 PM

OK, well, I appreciate your listening. I am not the only person that has experienced difficulties with party bureaucracy. For that reason, I decided that forming a faction to defend members’ rights would serve best to provide a way forward.

Oct 25, 2021, 4:51 PM

Tbh the Socialist Equality party is not even big enough to actually have factions. If there were factions then it may just splinter the party entirely something which the Trotskyist legacy has had some affinity with. They do get members like Shuvu batta who just attempt to change the party line which is why they may be heavy handed in their responses.Either way your situation does seem unfair

When was the last time you were active in the SEP

Oct 25, 2021, 4:55 PM

The suspension came in the beginning of 2007. My last article came around July 2006.I started writing again in the comments section a few years ago.I’m checking when now.At the end of 2016.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:01 PM

Since I live in a poor country now, I could work for the WSWS at a low price and translate into Spanish.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:02 PM

The smallness of the SEP tells me that a faction would only need to include a handful of maybe 5 or 10 people to receive recognition.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:03 PM

The purpose would be to discuss differences of opinion between members in a civil manner without interfering with party business. The lack of factions forces the party to expel people for “rejecting” the party line when in fact they only want the right to influence the party line.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:04 PM Seen

This only instills fear and hostility in the ranks. But as Marxists, we have to see the objective roots of differences in tactics within the capitalist system itself. The tactics represent different positions that may help the workers in certain situations and the capitalist class in others. Without freedom to choose between them and vote, the party may end up forced to give the capitalist class the advantage.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:07 PM

I think judging Shuvu Batta leaves out the problem of internal democracy that he faced at the time of his exit. He should have had access to the Democratic Power faction to plan statements to the press. He should not have sent an unauthorized email to the entire membership list. At the same time, as a provisional member, he should not have had that list at all. Who gave him the list? That actual member should step forward and accept responsibility.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:19 PM

He should explain why he give a list of members to a provisional member. The party should see this as a threat to security and suspend their membership.As for my situation…At the time that I left, unwillingly, I did not call for factional democracy. I had also never read the Declaration of the 46, the founding document of the Fourth International.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:21 PM

***At the time that I left, unwillingly, I did not call for factional democracy. I had also never read the Declaration of the 46, the founding document of the Left Opposition, the Trotskyist organization prior to the Fourth International.But to rely strictly on memory, I do recall meetings in which verbal abuse crossed lines. Inappropriate shouting appeared personally abusive.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:24 PM

I also recall votes over resolutions that did not appear democratic. We only saw the resolutions the day of the vote. We did have the resolutions read to us, but then we had an immediate vote with little discussion. The votes were expected to be unanimous.I noted this problem, but I did not consider it a reason to leave. I considered it a reason to improve the work of the party to expand democracy for the membership.I also remember arguing about a party constitution, since one did not exist.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:26 PM

I assumed this had to do with the British custom of keeping the constitution unwritten, but I did want to propose the drafting of a party constitution. I was told that a certain member, Shannon Jones, who I worked with on a campaign and who writes about Abraham Lincoln and other subjects on the WSWS to this day, that Shannon Jones had also proposed a constitution.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:28 PM

At the time of the Batta conflict, I thought a constitution still did not exist. In one document on the permanent revolution website, however, I saw a reference to the party constitution by Joseph Kishore. When I searched for the document, however, I could not find it anywhere. Such a document should be public or should at least be provided to members. That was the first mention I had ever seen of a party constitution.If possible, I would like to see a copy.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:30 PM

wsws.orgDocuments of the SEP Founding Congress: Statement of PrinciplesI am not certain of whether there is or is not one but I do remember that when I was joining the party and a member was going through my political positions etc I was told to read this statement

Oct 25, 2021, 5:33 PM

I was in agreement with the principles espoused but I should probably go over again tbh I was fresh off disillusionment from ****

Oct 25, 2021, 5:34 PM

I know that Lenin and Trotsky supported divided congresses and factions. The only time they turned against factions was during the Civil War. They had planned to restore factional democracy, but Lenin died and Trotsky got forced out. This put an end to democracy in the party and within the Soviets, preventing any opposition to Stalin from restoring democracy to the working class in the Soviet Union. Trotsky had argued that even during the Civil War, the Soviets had more democracy than afterwards.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:35 PM

Thanks, I’ll have a look at this, but this is not a constitution. One second, I will send you the reference I saw.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:37 PM

indeed Stalin made that into a principle of political life in the Soviet union. The state swallowed Democracy and the party wholesure

Btw as to your Democratic power faction. Is this only you or have you got some support ?

Oct 25, 2021, 5:39 PM

I would say there is support, but as for actual organization and leadership I have to stand alone.Other people have expressed disagreements with the conduct of the leadership, but they have not shown interest in steady work towards replacing factional tyranny with factional democracy.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:41 PM

**** As far back as in 1921, Sylvia Pankhurst, who led British Communism at the time, struggled against Lenin’s position in favor of the Labor Party. The Labor Party had already become an imperialist party, and when Pankhurst joined on Lenin’s behalf they demanded she shut down her paper. On refusing, they kicked her out and she began to form the Fourth International, even before Lenin’s death or Trotsky’s exile.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:44 PM

10s of millions would die in WWII because the Fourth International remained between nonexistent and isolated until the eve of WWII, when the war made it easy for governments to arrest and imprison communists and break up workers’ independent organizations.A return to the Labor Party would mean suicide for the revolutionary movement.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:47 PM

I don’t see the situation as hopeless, however. Lenin and Trotsky stood alone many times, but that proved that they could not be moved. They embodied a larger, more powerful force that was destined for victory if they could bear it patiently.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:50 PM

Tbf to Lenin at that time labour still embodied the dual nature of its Trade Union founding with it’s labour bureacracy/bourgeois leadership

Oct 25, 2021, 5:52 PM

In the end, it’s like struggling with an engineering problem, to construct the documents that define leadership in the historical moment, and maybe we’re better off alone than distracted by bickering.I see this reference for the constitution from Batta, but it’s not the one I was searching for.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:53 PM

OK, here it is. Joseph Kishore: “The status of provisional membership is stated in Section IV of the SEP Constitution.”

Oct 25, 2021, 5:54 PM

fair enough but do you mean alone as in without the vanguard party ? Traditionally this has been accepted as the Marxist method to capture revolutionary energy of workers and move it toward socialist revolution

Oct 25, 2021, 5:55 PM

http://forum.permanent-revolution.org/p/north-and-kishore-letter-to-peter-ross.html

Oct 25, 2021, 5:55 PM

Lenin respected Plekhanov for having fought alone for the foundation of the Russian Social Democracy against the Narodnik populist terrorist group. Then Lenin fought alone against Plekhanov, the leader of the SDLP for the formation of the Bolsheviks and for the Marxist approach during the 1905 revolution. And Trotsky fought alone outside of the Bolsheviks or Mensheviks throughout the period of 1905 to 1917.In reality, standing alone meant standing right behind the previous leader, so as to pick up where he left off when he abandoned the line.Joining their organization in order to disguise disagreement meant making themselves unfit for rule.

Oct 25, 2021, 5:59 PM

Had Lenin turned against building the Bolsheviks in opposition to opportunism, he would have been replaced by Trotsky, who would have criticized many Bolsheviks who simply agreed with Lenin to be accepted into what everyone with advanced knowledge already knew would be the future party of the revolution. Trotsky did not join the Bolsheviks because maintaining an eye on Marxist theory and on the living movement held much higher significance than membership and participation in whatever campaign or any signing together of any particular document.

Oct 25, 2021, 6:04 PM

You have to follow the strategy, not the leader, because the leader is only human and can lose focus.I need to go have dinner and then I have some work to do.Do you mind if I post this conversation to my page?

Oct 25, 2021, 6:12 PM

I can hide your name if you’d like, or other information.

Oct 25, 2021, 6:14 PM

Awaiting your reply to see if I can post this conversation.

Oct 26, 2021, 12:36 PM

If you would like but yes I’d ask that you hide my name and certain info about members I’ve come into contact with etc. I stress that I’m still in political agreement with wsws but I do believe that there needs to be more room for discussion in SEP

Sorry for not replying easier btw I’ve had things to do

Oct 26, 2021, Tue 2:09 PM

oh just realised i didn’t mention any other name’s in that case just my twitter name and also my mention of ‘personal issues’

Oct 26, 2021, Tue 3:23 PM